In this episode of the AlchemistX Innovators Inside Podcast, Ian Bergman sits down with Azita Esmaili, Chief Technology and Innovation Officer at Eviden, for a deep dive into the transformative world of AI and innovation. The conversation covers a broad range of topics—from the rapid pace of technological change to the cultural shifts required to harness AI’s full potential.
Azita and Ian agree that technological advancements, particularly in AI, are happening faster than ever before. This rapid evolution challenges organizations to adapt quickly. They note that while regulators and traditional frameworks struggle to keep up, the real opportunity lies in embracing change. Organizations that learn to move at the speed of technology will have a significant edge in today’s dynamic market.
A recurring theme in the episode is the importance of fostering a mindset that prioritizes ongoing learning and innovation. Azita highlights that a strong culture of experimentation—where failures are seen as learning opportunities—is essential for both individual growth and organizational success. Instead of waiting for a perfect playbook, businesses should encourage teams to test, iterate, and adapt, making innovation an everyday practice.
The conversation delves into how successful innovation requires a well-rounded strategy that brings together the right tools, data, and human capital. Azita emphasizes that while advanced AI tools can provide immense capabilities, their true value is unlocked only when aligned with a company’s overall strategy and culture. A holistic approach ensures that new technologies are not just implemented in isolation but are integrated across teams to drive meaningful change.
One of the biggest challenges for organizations today is understanding how to measure the impact of innovation. Both speakers discuss the need for setting clear, measurable KPIs and developing frameworks—such as challenge libraries—that help track the return on investment (ROI) from new technologies. By focusing on tangible outcomes, companies can better assess the effectiveness of their innovation strategies and make informed decisions about future investments.
Innovation does not come without its challenges. The duo addresses the inherent risks associated with integrating new technologies into traditional business models. From navigating cybersecurity threats to dealing with lagging regulatory frameworks, it is crucial for organizations to balance the excitement of new possibilities with a pragmatic approach to risk management. This balanced perspective is key to ensuring that innovation drives positive outcomes without exposing the organization to unnecessary vulnerabilities.
Whether you’re a seasoned innovation leader or just starting on your journey, these insights provide a roadmap to navigating the complexities of today’s technological landscape.
If you found these takeaways valuable, be sure to subscribe to the AlchemistX Innovators Inside Podcast for more deep dives into the future of innovation, and join the conversation on how to transform challenges into opportunities.
Timestamps
🎙️ Podcast Introduction & Overview: Azita Esmaili (00:00:00)
⚡ The Rapid Pace of Technological Change and Its Impact (00:00:43)
🤖 AI’s Transformative Power & Augmented Intelligence (00:02:07)
🛡️ Balancing Innovation with Regulation & Cybersecurity (00:03:20)
🌐 Shifting Digital Landscapes: From Cloud to AI (00:07:13)
👤 Introducing Azita Esmaili – Background & Expertise (00:12:35)
🔍 Journey from Engineering to Open Innovation (00:13:15)
💡 Harnessing Collective Intelligence in Innovation (00:17:07)
📈 Future-Proofing Organizations through Continuous Innovation (00:21:04)
🧪 Experimentation, Prototyping & Measuring ROI in AI (00:26:48)
🤝 Integrating AI Across Teams and Organizational Levels (00:29:06)
⚖️ Navigating the Innovator’s Dilemma & Balancing Risks (00:41:07)
⚡ Rapid fire questions (00:51:21)
📢 Episode Wrap-Up, Key Takeaways & Call to Connect (00:57:13)
00;00;22;04 - 00;00;43;14
Ian Bergman
Welcome to season six of Alchemist x Innovators Inside the podcast, where we explore the world of corporate innovation and dive deep into the minds and stories of innovation. Thought leaders crafting the future. I am your host, Ian Bergmann, and if you're an innovation agitator like me, then this is where you want to be.
00;00;43;17 - 00;01;27;05
Ian Bergman
I love that sentiment or that that thought, by the way, that I like technology. That doesn't give us time to get comfortable with it. We're definitely going to talk about that because it's it's oh man, it's true. I'm always caught in this tension in my mind between a sentiment like that, like things are moving so fast. It's impossible to get comfortable with this really interesting human force that I think I've talked about with some folks on the podcast before, but I find really interesting where humanity seems to have an ability to make the the new and the magical mundane really quickly, like, oh, you know, like there's self-driving cars, but they're only in a
00;01;27;05 - 00;01;36;16
Ian Bergman
few cities, so it's normal, you know, like stuff like that. It's a really interesting tension these days, because it's almost like we're trying to protect ourselves from how fast the world is changing.
00;01;36;18 - 00;02;07;13
Azita Esmaili
It is what I think the game of AI is actually quite different, one, because it kind of have a life of its own with any other technology, including the kind of the algorithm and machine learning and so on. We had time to train it. We had time to kind of mature the technology. We had time to see the applications of it and learn from it.
00;02;07;16 - 00;02;47;16
Azita Esmaili
With AI and the way like you have different models developing right and left, different applications, different products and really like, you know, that has a transformative impact on all of us is just finding our feet, both as human beings as well as technologies, to be able to get productive with it and actually use it the way that would help us to have a better life and be more more productive and effective in the roles that we have in the normal ization.
00;02;47;19 - 00;03;20;11
Azita Esmaili
That would be kind of the approach that I want to take. But then, you know, it is sort of out of our control. There are regulations that have come to effect that are like a policy, policies to follow when you develop products and all that, but still, the regulatory always is behind innovation and behind technology. And by the time they have catch up, I don't know where we will be in, in kind of Skynet but.
00;03;20;11 - 00;03;25;04
Azita Esmaili
Or in Jarvis, if you are fond of sci fi.
00;03;25;06 - 00;03;28;11
Ian Bergman
Come on. That, you better believe it. I.
00;03;28;12 - 00;04;04;25
Azita Esmaili
Like, you know, for years I. Oh, I didn't call AI artificial intelligence. I call it augmented intelligence. I always was hoping, and this is way before generative AI, something that like an a very few people actually foreseen when it came out on in 2022 or maybe earlier, but I came across it in 2022, and I was always hoping that augmented intelligence would be there to help us to have a better life and be more effective in our roles in the job that we do.
00;04;04;28 - 00;04;22;22
Azita Esmaili
Take away the kind of the boring stuff so we can focus on the new things and innovative things. But yeah, but what we see today in the market, there are some signals towards that. But there are also a lot of opposite signals in terms of where it's going to go, you know.
00;04;22;25 - 00;04;47;08
Ian Bergman
Well and and every like of internet, but like every, every tool, I feel like throughout history, every set of technologies, every set of new capabilities has had that tension. Right. It's the it can help us do good. It can help us do evil. Evil. It can help us do our job better. It can help disrupt things. But somehow this feels more profound or more impactful.
00;04;47;11 - 00;05;13;10
Azita Esmaili
Yes. Because it's like, you know, the topic of becoming sentimental and so on that, that it has its own intelligence is one thing. The other thing is that it has a transpose dimensional impact. So if you look at in your work, as individuals, if you start using this tool, which we already have, it has helped us to become more effective.
00;05;13;11 - 00;05;39;15
Azita Esmaili
But then in an organization, then you have these like, you know, depending on what your role is, you use the tool and it has like, you know, a very specific outcome for your role. But when you when you work across a team, you know each individual, the impact needs to be kind of collected on the team level and then on the organization level.
00;05;39;17 - 00;06;05;13
Azita Esmaili
So it's not like before that, okay, I am going to use a smartphone as an individual and just makes me better. This is really impacting every single person in their organization and has a transformative impact on the organization level, which I don't think he has actually settled for everybody. You know.
00;06;05;16 - 00;06;07;22
Ian Bergman
I don't think it's even close to settled.
00;06;07;22 - 00;06;31;07
Azita Esmaili
Yeah, yeah, there is a lot of hype out there. There is a lot of fear out there. There is a lot of excitement. We're just listening to what the economic forum, a panel about AI and all five people that were on the panel, everybody had a different kind of view about it. One side as the like, you know, then Joe, the other one.
00;06;31;07 - 00;06;48;18
Azita Esmaili
So I know it's full of opportunities. The third one is like, you know, give us some time to adjust to it, you know. So so it was like quite a diverse set of ideas about where this will, take us in the industry.
00;06;48;21 - 00;07;13;07
Ian Bergman
But it's something that a lot of people are paying attention to. Like that's also one of the interesting thing. It's like, it's not like it's controversial that we are at some kind of inflection point with AI, right? That's not controversial, really. Most people would agree that something real and meaningful and wildly impactful is happening. And so now the disagreement is on, well, what does it mean?
00;07;13;07 - 00;07;34;06
Ian Bergman
How fast is it going to happen? You know, all kinds of things, but it's all about the win. Not if it's all about the, it's all about the how. Not again, not for what? Right. Which I think is really interesting because I lived through I'm old enough to say I've lived through sort of previous platform waves. Right.
00;07;34;06 - 00;08;06;25
Ian Bergman
I remember the emergence of the cloud. I remember the emergence of kind of mobile first computing and the one thing that feels really different to me, and I'm wondering if you agree, the one thing that feels really different to me is the broad consensus inside and outside technology circles that we are at the beginning of a very steep and powerful run up AI capabilities, and it's going to change a lot of things.
00;08;06;27 - 00;08;24;26
Ian Bergman
We don't know what, we don't know how quickly there's a lot of FUD, but it's going to change a lot. And that that's different. Like cloud people debated mobile. I remember arguing with someone about like, should we have cameras on phones? I was on the wrong side of that one, by the way. Yeah. No. Anyway, I don't know what you think of that.
00;08;24;26 - 00;08;26;11
Ian Bergman
Like it. Does it feel different?
00;08;26;13 - 00;09;01;19
Azita Esmaili
Absolute thing. And, when I mentioned earlier, that is it has a transformational impact as, as you mentioned cloud technology, we moved all the application to the cloud. Yeah, we have digitalized applications and we have moved from like, you know, doing a lot of things manually, automatically and so on. It has improved our productivity, connectivity, real world change our ways of working by still is when it comes to AI is going to be so different because it will be personalized.
00;09;01;22 - 00;09;47;01
Azita Esmaili
It will be like, you know, knowing a lot of things that you don't know. Yeah, I can kind of capture that information and analyze it in, in a like in a short amount of time. And while this can be like, you know, applied to good can also be applied in, in a negative way as well as the one thing that like, you know, I have noticed now using the using the tools for maybe two years or so, there's very little actually like how to and guidance is out there, how to get best out of these tools.
00;09;47;03 - 00;09;56;11
Azita Esmaili
They just like throw it out to you right. You know, and it kind of is a self-learning approach.
00;09;56;11 - 00;10;22;07
Ian Bergman
Well, because because no one knows. Right? I mean, like the there are obviously different skill levels and there's obviously I think we know enough now to guide sort of newcomers to generative technologies or newcomers to LMS. But I think the reality is there is no playbook that's been written. Yeah, right. I remember two years ago, everybody thinking Prompt engineer was going to be, you know, the next $700,000 a year job.
00;10;22;13 - 00;10;43;18
Ian Bergman
I'm not sure that's true, but like, I think I think you're right. But I think it's also because we're so early on the adoption curve, the art and the science is not settled, which makes it very hard to provide guidance for newcomers, because all you can really do is share personal and organizational experiences. I don't know if that's what you see, but it's what I've been seeing.
00;10;43;20 - 00;10;44;08
Ian Bergman
Yes.
00;10;44;08 - 00;11;11;29
Azita Esmaili
And like, you know, on the academic level, there are, like, you know, frameworks that start coming out and, in terms of how to's and how to go about it. But, you know, the distance between academic and applications by the time that has actually penetrate the, the, kind of people that actually use using on day to day basis, it has is it a lag of 2 to 4 years, 2 to 5 years.
00;11;12;01 - 00;11;41;07
Azita Esmaili
So one thing that I think is critical is that for organizations to kind of kind of speed that learning curve about, I again, that comes to the organization maturity, the leadership, where they want to go with the culture, all of all of it. And how to get best out of the existing tool and set yourself up for for the future.
00;11;41;10 - 00;11;52;03
Azita Esmaili
There is some stuff that we know, and there are some guest guessing games as well, you know, and nothing is set in stone. But yeah, I have to prepare for the future.
00;11;52;05 - 00;12;10;29
Ian Bergman
And I think that is a really important point. I think it's a good point to pause on, but but I agree, like it's not set in stone. We're learning together and like and when I say we that's a all encompassing. We write for like a lot of the world. And I think it's been a long time since there's been anything like that in the world.
00;12;10;29 - 00;12;35;10
Ian Bergman
Maybe it's never happened before. And so I want to talk about that. But but first I want to pause for a second because this is my favorite type of conversation. And we just jumped right in. We didn't we haven't done introductions. I'm done. I think we've just started talking about a topic we're both really passionate about. And I appreciate that, but I want to I want to share a little bit about my guest with the audience.
00;12;35;10 - 00;12;48;07
Ian Bergman
I want to, you know, get a little bit of background so you kind of know who you're talking to. And anyway, Izetta Ismail, welcome to innovators. Inside you are the chief technology and innovation officer at evidence. All right.
00;12;48;09 - 00;12;52;19
Azita Esmaili
Yes, yes. Very excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
00;12;52;21 - 00;13;15;25
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well, it's super fun. I mean, I can already tell this is going to be a great conversation, but I would love to dig in just a little bit to your background. Right. You have your current role and you know you are recognized as a future proofing expert, which is something I want to talk about a lot in a second.
00;13;15;28 - 00;13;33;26
Ian Bergman
But can you just let us know? Like, how did you get here? What are some of the key moments in your career that led you to be thinking about innovation? And more importantly, these hard questions about how we kind of like capture this wild, untamed animal that is AI and actually make it useful for people.
00;13;33;28 - 00;13;53;11
Azita Esmaili
Sure. So I my background is I come from engineering electronic engineers and background. I once upon a time I lived in Sweden. So in I was educated in Sweden, electronic engineering in, beautiful city of Gothenburg.
00;13;53;13 - 00;13;55;26
Ian Bergman
I love that city.
00;13;55;29 - 00;14;21;10
Azita Esmaili
But majority of my kind of work has been in, in the UK. And so after a while I moved to the UK. I would say I've been in technology now for over two decades, and the first decade my focus was on India scaling. I really worked closely with the R&D team and in terms of scaling R&D into the product.
00;14;21;10 - 00;14;51;03
Azita Esmaili
So B2B product, B2C products, actually, I started with embedded software. So which we call IoT these days as a starting point and then as the game of software became bigger and bigger, it was B to B, B to C, B to B to C, and in the last decade I have shifted into digital transformation and to help organization in terms of embedding digital into their DNA.
00;14;51;05 - 00;14;58;27
Azita Esmaili
And as digital has evolved and matured, that conversation has, also evolved and matured.
00;14;58;27 - 00;14;59;16
Ian Bergman
Absolutely.
00;14;59;16 - 00;15;23;01
Azita Esmaili
So today we are talking about AI. Ten years ago, we were talking about how do we need a website or do we need applications. You know, so it's the conversation has completely, completely changed. But I have been passionate. And the reason I have done this is that I am passionate about technology, digitalization and the impact that it has on all of us.
00;15;23;04 - 00;15;53;04
Azita Esmaili
And I remember maybe was 6 or 7 years ago, I was asked in terms of where do I see kind of future of digital? And I said, like, you know, hope to be able to work with, Jarvis like technologies. And I think everybody in the room just looked at me like, I'm an alien, like you're crazy. I'll turn six years down the line.
00;15;53;06 - 00;16;21;17
Azita Esmaili
We are sitting there. Yeah, or maybe a little bit long. It was. I think it was like, yes, it was ten years ago. It was ten years ago, maybe 20, 25. So a decade ago when I mentioned this, it was like a far fetched outcome. But today it is not. So we are almost there. And yeah, in terms of the points in, in my career that has made me kind of because I have shifted a little bit.
00;16;21;17 - 00;16;51;13
Azita Esmaili
Yeah, I started as an engineer and I was constantly curious about, okay, why are we doing investing in this R&D? Who's the customer, what the customer wants? Sure. That made me to shift from engineering into project management. Product management. And after a while, I got tired of, like, you know, the requirement documents that weren't really specifying what the engineer supposed to be doing.
00;16;51;15 - 00;17;06;02
Azita Esmaili
So as a CTO, I decided to be responsible both for product and engineering so we can actually articulate the requirements the way the engineers can actually get the outcome out of.
00;17;06;04 - 00;17;07;03
Ian Bergman
Yep.
00;17;07;05 - 00;17;41;03
Azita Esmaili
And I think about ten, 11 years ago I kind of came across it open innovation. Yeah. I learned a lot in terms on how to use data to to do product development and product improvement. But the turning point for me was, Digital Catapult, which is is an innovation program in the UK, focusing on innovation inside the United Kingdom.
00;17;41;05 - 00;18;06;24
Azita Esmaili
Digital Catapult focused with digital economy at that time in terms of how to, to bring academic startups, corporates, enterprises together to innovate. And that was the first time that I came across open innovation. And the role of ecosystem and the the lacking of innovation is really collective intelligence.
00;18;06;26 - 00;18;07;21
Ian Bergman
Yes.
00;18;07;21 - 00;18;15;01
Azita Esmaili
That novel ideas are the collective intelligence. Connecting multiple data points and applying.
00;18;15;02 - 00;18;49;10
Ian Bergman
Yeah. And multiple and multiple sources of expertise. I think, you know, I love that you went kind of from engineering to this concept of open innovation, because I'll be honest, that that's actually a hard path for many engineers, right? Because like, what do we do as engineers? We solve problems and I don't I, I'm curious what your turning point was, but when I think about open innovation as foundation for kind of driving positive change, one of the things that I love is that it forces us to think not about the solution, but about the problem.
00;18;49;13 - 00;19;12;14
Ian Bergman
And then you go seek and you go, you know, you go seek what's great answers are what the state of the art is. As you say, you access collective intelligence. I want to keep hearing about this journey, but I think that's such an important point because this concept, you know, that really emerged over the last couple of decades of open innovation, I think is more important now than it's ever been.
00;19;12;16 - 00;19;46;05
Azita Esmaili
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think naturally, I'm fascinated about technology, like what it can do. But, I am more, interested in the application, and I feel rewarded when I see some of the use, like it has been built. So, what you mentioned in terms of the, the difficulties that some engineers or many engineers might feel is because they are passionate about just see the resources there and then and just keep going.
00;19;46;08 - 00;20;11;26
Azita Esmaili
While I'm interested in the application and the usage and, and how this is being used. So that's I think that's a distinguish in terms of that's why I move some engineering into project management and product management, because I really was interested in terms of what is the problem we are solving, rather than what cooler stuff we can do, you know.
00;20;12;02 - 00;20;12;11
Ian Bergman
Well.
00;20;12;11 - 00;20;14;08
Azita Esmaili
And and that, you know.
00;20;14;10 - 00;20;37;07
Ian Bergman
Oh man, we're going to we're going to come back to this later in the conversation. But that is such an interesting thing because modern tools enable us to hack together a prototype or play with things faster than ever. And there's a lot of benefit there. But it doesn't mean that we are actually solving a meaningful human problem that is going to drive innovation.
00;20;37;09 - 00;21;04;13
Ian Bergman
Well, so let me ask you something. I'm going to ask you kind of a hard question if it's okay. We've been too friendly so far. Now we're going to debate a little, you know, you've built a career in being a future proofing expert. Now, I put to you that it is increasingly impossible to future proof. At least it's increasingly impossible to predict what the future will look like and plans specifically for it.
00;21;04;16 - 00;21;13;29
Ian Bergman
So what does that mean? And what do people do to to quote unquote, future proof as people and, and maybe more importantly, as organizations? Can you tell me a bit about that?
00;21;14;01 - 00;21;23;00
Azita Esmaili
Absolutely. So that was why I open our conversation before we start the recording, that I don't know what is going to happen with. I.
00;21;23;02 - 00;21;24;25
Ian Bergman
Right. None of us do. So,
00;21;24;28 - 00;21;51;11
Azita Esmaili
I was kind of preparing for this conversation that one, two years ago. I knew what future proofing mean today, as much as, more I learned about, I kind of less certain I become about the future. However, just to, like, you know, like anything else, we can control things that we can control. We can manage things that we can control.
00;21;51;13 - 00;22;06;18
Azita Esmaili
And I think even today, future proofing for organization means to be able to innovate continuously. I mean, there's systematic way and all levels.
00;22;06;20 - 00;22;07;02
Ian Bergman
Yes.
00;22;07;09 - 00;22;32;15
Azita Esmaili
Innovation for many, like, you know, decades has been like a no. This buzzword you have, like, you know, some smart people in the corner hacking things together. And then if you're lucky, you'll be able to connect it to the enterprise and to scale it, depending on your organizational culture and your your kind of investment available many moving parts.
00;22;32;17 - 00;23;18;17
Azita Esmaili
Yeah, but even today, with AI in play, the organizations that will kind of continue at least in this stage of AI, are organizations that are be able to have the right culture, culture of learning at all level, culture of experimenting at all level, the culture of continuous improvement across all level have the right data culture because I the game of I mean like, you know, with siloed and disconnected and non-existing data is not going to have the the kind of the right output.
00;23;18;19 - 00;23;40;26
Azita Esmaili
And then we get to the technology stack in terms of having the right tools and enablers to help the organization to achieve the the kind of parameters that the culture has set and enable that data driven decision making inside the organization.
00;23;40;28 - 00;24;05;13
Ian Bergman
So this is like, look, this is so good right now we're in a little bit of violent agreement right. And I don't know if you've read it I recently read a book called Same As Ever by I think it was Morgan has all but there's a chapter in this book that talks about how hard it is and how hard it's been through history for humans to sort of plan for and predict the future.
00;24;05;13 - 00;24;32;00
Ian Bergman
And it basically it quotes a gentleman whose name I'm forgetting right now will dig it up for the show notes, but you know that basically that basically says, look, if you can't predict the future, you set yourself up to prepare for it, right? And it could be preparing for earthquakes in California. If you don't know where they're going to be, it can be preparing for rapid change through this culture of innovation, iteration and data centricity that you say, I love this.
00;24;32;00 - 00;24;53;27
Ian Bergman
And I think I think it's actually one of those brilliant insights that is so often overlooked. Right? You can't know what's going to happen next, but you can set yourself up to adapt to it. But here's the thing aren't you running just head on against like classic innovator's dilemma? Like, aren't you kind of preaching the, what should be.
00;24;53;27 - 00;24;59;07
Ian Bergman
But in a isn't it kind of naive to think that organizations can actually do this like.
00;24;59;14 - 00;25;31;29
Azita Esmaili
Well, I think if you absolutely. So like an I started by saying that innovation has been a buzzword, something to create some excitement. It has been kind of maybe limited to to a team in the, in the organization and so on. And almost the only emotion that I game is, transformational game. Yes. And so and I started with culture, you know, before we had like, you know, any kind of transformation.
00;25;31;29 - 00;26;32;14
Azita Esmaili
You talk about people, process, technology, right. That has kind of this is that this is a different game. And I start with culture, data and technology. And culture, of course, is focuses on how the we operate as the kind of human capital inside the organization. But the, everything from how you capture your data, how you manage your data, how you kind of taking or adding bias into your data, as well as how you build your AI products, as well as if you have this continuous learning culture, if you have the risk taking culture, all over this part of the culture parameters that you need to have in an organization, and then that filters down
00;26;32;14 - 00;26;42;19
Azita Esmaili
to the data and then the technology will enable it. And yes, it is like, you know, the magic is in the implementation of.
00;26;42;21 - 00;26;43;05
Ian Bergman
Always.
00;26;43;12 - 00;26;48;18
Azita Esmaili
Because you can have plenty of policy documents, but how to implement that?
00;26;48;20 - 00;27;03;21
Ian Bergman
How do you test it? How how do you recommend that a leader of an organization test and measure whether or not they're set up to be future proofed? Are there KPIs they can track? Are there conversations they can have?
00;27;03;23 - 00;27;43;19
Azita Esmaili
I think, again, organization is an organization is not the, kind of not not everybody plays the same role and have had the same job. So before again, innovation was the role of product team or user experience team or so on. So with them, you kind of have an easier way of being able to do. But today we expecting of our operation team the, the team that doing purchasing and forecasting and you know, human resources everybody to be in this game.
00;27;43;22 - 00;28;20;16
Azita Esmaili
So you have you have different level of maturity in that aspect. And how can you apply the principles that has been in the product development? In user experience approach, in terms of the mindset and what to put it like in a forefront and how to play and kind of experiment and learn that this continuous learning how to take those principles and then apply it to the group of team members that haven't been in this game before.
00;28;20;18 - 00;29;06;09
Azita Esmaili
So any leader I think they need, they can see everybody at the same time, you know, so it's different level of maturity based on that. The role second is I think in terms of enabling the team and with the technology, for instance, we have done this experiment with organizations and with the team members that are not used to use AI in their day to day job or they don't know how the impact will be in terms of making that available, and create kind of a two week window for them to learn in the form of gamification, even, and based on their roles, to create a number of challenges that they have.
00;29;06;09 - 00;29;32;05
Azita Esmaili
Okay. Me, as a HR manager, I need, like, you know, I want to do these things first, that I want to access this data this way and create a kind of challenge library. And then based on that, to move forward with creating these squad teams, for them to select challenges and then start working with the tool to create a use case that they could utilize.
00;29;32;07 - 00;29;46;19
Azita Esmaili
Yeah. So it is very practical. Yes. I mean there is no kind of a shortcut to it is about learning, experimenting and going systematically about it and okay.
00;29;46;19 - 00;30;07;09
Ian Bergman
And, and this makes a lot of sense. And there's a few pieces of what you're saying that I love. I love this concept of a challenge library, for instance. Right. Because again it's it's it's problem oriented not solution oriented. Right. And you can assess it to make sure that they're meaningful challenges, but it forces us to say what are the best answers?
00;30;07;09 - 00;30;18;15
Ian Bergman
And I wonder, like in your experience, how many companies, how many organizations maintain some form of challenge library like what you're talking about?
00;30;18;17 - 00;30;24;20
Azita Esmaili
I think they come in different shapes and forms. Another thing is that, you know, do they.
00;30;24;26 - 00;30;33;05
Ian Bergman
But but, but and when I start when I say maintain, I mean maintain and publish whether it's internal or external, but actually communicate it.
00;30;33;08 - 00;31;08;25
Azita Esmaili
But I don't have a number, but I have come across a number of kind of both clients and partners that have some sort of program in terms of enabling AI tools. Good. And then train a set of colleagues, enabling them with training and kind of experimentation so they be able to use the all if like, you know, then the the concept of challenge library, that is something that is like, you know, how much investment needs to be there.
00;31;08;28 - 00;31;44;15
Azita Esmaili
That goes back to the culture, a lot of organization thing. Just like enabling the tool. Go ahead and play around with it. Others are more problem oriented in terms of what are the challenges in your role that you want to resolve? Either activate kind of innovation riders, but for the employees to kind of submit their ideas and so on, or having a challenge library in terms of I want to resolve this in my role, it would make me more effective or provide a better customer experience or whatever that that might be.
00;31;44;18 - 00;32;06;20
Azita Esmaili
But yeah, but it is, large enterprises, I would say, like, you know, for different size organization but substantial, number of large organization, have some sort of program in this if it's as structured as having, kind of challenge library that they later publish, I don't know that level of maturity.
00;32;06;20 - 00;32;09;05
Ian Bergman
But people are. So people are trying.
00;32;09;08 - 00;32;12;10
Azita Esmaili
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
00;32;12;12 - 00;32;38;11
Ian Bergman
That's I mean that's good. And and do you, do you see the emergence of AI and the emergent uncertainty about, you know, what it's going to be capable of next? Is that do you see that encouraging more people and more organizations to try and be prepared? How how is that landing in your in your clients and your customers?
00;32;38;14 - 00;33;18;29
Azita Esmaili
I think today, if you're not in the game of AI, you kind of knocking the game at all. So yeah, so everybody and all organizations have some sort of, AI program enabling the, the employees. And of course, depending on the nature of your business, if you are a kind of in banking, online health or so on, that is more regulatory and your data is more regulated, that might have a different flavor comparing to a company is is product engineering comparing to a hospital?
00;33;18;29 - 00;33;33;10
Azita Esmaili
You know, each sector has its own game by almost any organization that I have come across has some sort of data program. Otherwise they're not in the game at all.
00;33;33;14 - 00;33;57;14
Ian Bergman
And I think that's, you know, that's one of those kind of important and scary insights. And I always wonder, I always wonder how many people listen to these conversations and are thinking to themselves like, oh, man, I'm not in the game, or I don't know that I am right. Because, you know, you said something I think before we started recording, but it was such a impactful and meaningful statement, right?
00;33;57;14 - 00;34;16;28
Ian Bergman
It was that, you know, AI is advancing and moving so quickly. It's not giving us a chance to get caught up. You actually said it, I think better. So if you remember your words. Yeah, you know, given that I do wonder how much of the world is quote unquote in the game right now.
00;34;17;00 - 00;34;44;05
Azita Esmaili
Again, that culture of continuous learning and experimentation. Yeah, of course, the challenge in the enterprise level. So it is easy for somebody like you and I in, like, you know, independent play around with tools like, can I get a license here and there and, and work with it for developers and so on, or for on the enterprise level, you have the cybersecurity issue.
00;34;44;07 - 00;34;52;07
Azita Esmaili
So as a result, the technologies that they can use needs to be more mature than rather than being like in a release yesterday.
00;34;52;07 - 00;34;53;04
Ian Bergman
Of course.
00;34;53;06 - 00;35;24;06
Azita Esmaili
Yeah. But that again, that going back to that game of future proofing, if you have that culture of continuous learning and continuous experimentation, you have ability to tap into the latest as they been available and secure enough and mature enough to use. The only thing is, in terms of maybe not all of them resolves into a tangible outcome.
00;35;24;08 - 00;35;59;12
Azita Esmaili
That require, like, you know, any single new tool that you utilize. It comes with an investment, comes with a cost in terms of maintenance and, I mentioned the cyber security challenge around it. So an organization, an enterprise needs to weigh all these parameters and but yeah, but you can have a traditional sandbox kind of environment in terms of okay, what what are the latest thing to actually that we can actually use that that would be useful to us.
00;35;59;14 - 00;36;35;11
Azita Esmaili
And then based on the maturity and make it available to the organization. But to be honest, even the open AI capability is the most mature one that has been around for like a few years. A lot of organizations still struggle to get that ROI. That was promised. Yeah. Basically because the complexity that that being mentioned and also it's not about just using one one AI model.
00;36;35;14 - 00;37;02;20
Azita Esmaili
You need a mix of generic and various specific models based on what you do. Finding that through experimentation and kind of mixing and matching what is out there is something that that takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And and so yeah, so it is at the same time we play the catch up all the time. Yeah.
00;37;02;20 - 00;37;24;00
Ian Bergman
I mean I want to hidden that like I mean you're right, I see I see the exact same thing. Right. Organizations individual is very excited about. And they're using and deploying models. Right. They they may just be using ChatGPT. They may be doing API calls. They may be doing local models or tailored. They are struggling to understand and measure the ROI.
00;37;24;02 - 00;37;44;29
Ian Bergman
But, you know, one of the things for me is that I just wonder if, you know, we just haven't we just haven't figured out how to get the most value. Right. Like I think about my I think about my own experience on a day to day basis. I use perplexity, ChatGPT cloud. I might touch replit. I'm not even going into the imagery and video.
00;37;44;29 - 00;38;16;26
Ian Bergman
There's probably a few others, you know, I play around with some other models, but I kind of bounce between them trying different things, and I'll settle in like, I really like anthropic right now for text editing, text generation, things like that, and code. Right? I really like ChatGPT for helping me step through and understand problems, but you don't know what's going to work until you try, and you don't even know how to use the tool right now until you try to your earlier point on, you know, there's no sort of state of the art on training.
00;38;16;26 - 00;38;37;20
Ian Bergman
And I try things with these tools all the time that in my head I'm like, of course this is going to work. AI is magic, right? It's just going to figure it out. And so I'll deploy like an O1 or O3 model that theoretically has reasoning. And I'll ask it to like break a cryptographic code. Right. A puzzle that could take a human 30s.
00;38;37;20 - 00;39;03;11
Ian Bergman
And like I actually had, I actually had o1 thinking for like 15 minutes the other day and then it just gave up on, substitution cipher code and I guess my point is like, it's really hard to measure ROI because we haven't figured out the patterns for how to use these things really effectively in a general case. Yet we figured it out in specific cases, customer support, stuff like that.
00;39;03;14 - 00;39;07;05
Ian Bergman
But the mandate is to keep trying, right? Because if you don't keep trying.
00;39;07;07 - 00;39;07;27
Azita Esmaili
The absolute.
00;39;08;00 - 00;39;10;08
Ian Bergman
You're going to you're just you're not playing the game.
00;39;10;11 - 00;39;36;18
Azita Esmaili
Yes, absolutely. And it is important to especially for a large enterprise to have that intent in the beginning. So your intent is to kind of see if you get the outcome that you want from from this new tool, learn something about it on the enterprise level. They might apply it for customer like, you know, customer support or for the team to become more productive or so on.
00;39;36;20 - 00;40;00;00
Azita Esmaili
Then you need to have KPIs to measure it at the end. Have we become more productive? Have we have we generated higher customer satisfaction? So I'm going into the game with those tools. For enterprise. It's important to have an intent, have a strategy and also evaluate at the end. If that's the case. Yeah.
00;40;00;00 - 00;40;00;19
Ian Bergman
And and it.
00;40;00;19 - 00;40;31;01
Azita Esmaili
Might be also for the individuals in terms of you play with ten tools. You you want to do something that it has to be an outcome. If you want to write a blog post, or you can generate the video or so on, and you try across multiple tools until you find your ideal one. So it is important to know why are you going into the game and how to measure the outcome to ensure that you have you have your ROI, basic.
00;40;31;04 - 00;40;34;00
Azita Esmaili
Sometimes the the intent is just learning.
00;40;34;03 - 00;40;56;04
Ian Bergman
Which which is so important. I want to I want to click on that point. Learning by doing feels more necessary to me now than than ever. And I don't know the people in the organizations that I've seen struggle in the face of this kind of rapid change have often been the ones that want to learn before they do right.
00;40;56;04 - 00;41;07;02
Ian Bergman
They want to understand everything, build out the perfect plan, and execute. When what you really need to do is you need to learn along the way, right? And adapt. You need to. You need to think like an innovator. Think like an entrepreneur.
00;41;07;09 - 00;41;20;28
Azita Esmaili
Absolutely, absolutely. And that is I think that's also like, you know, the impact of AI because things are changing so rapidly that there is no time to do that, to build that perfect plan and then going into execution. You know.
00;41;21;05 - 00;41;49;28
Ian Bergman
Man, I get into this. I do this with our partners all the time. You might you're probably, I have the luxury of spending a lot of my time working with startup founders, right. Who are very, usually very happy to operate in ambiguity. But I got to tell you some of the most frustrating conversations that I have with corporate leaders about innovation come down to me being asked a question by an executives, you know, that I can't answer.
00;41;50;00 - 00;42;09;24
Ian Bergman
And I'm like, I don't know, let's find out. Let's do it. Let's see what we learn. And they're like, but what? Like, what's the answer? I'm putting budget against this time. Resource risk, whatever. And I feel like I often end up at a little bit of in a little bit of a wall, like we're just talking past each other and I don't know how to get out of it.
00;42;09;24 - 00;42;16;02
Ian Bergman
I, I suspect, I suspect this is core to your business and you deal with this a lot, but I've this. But I wonder if that sounds familiar.
00;42;16;08 - 00;42;40;26
Azita Esmaili
No. Absolutely. So, so. And I think that is something that a lot of organizations are struggling with, a lot of enterprises are struggling with in terms of when it comes to innovation and innovation management. I go back to my earlier comment in terms of innovation, always been like, you know, something exciting, some proof of concept, you know, something new, right?
00;42;40;28 - 00;43;11;26
Azita Esmaili
But then connected to the enterprise on a scale that's a piece that is a lot of time is missing. We have had all the excitement, but where is the money out of it? And I think like something that I haven't got my head around in terms of why is like, you know, it's not more mature that that I see in the enterprise is the innovation management, like product development, like software engineering.
00;43;11;28 - 00;43;47;00
Azita Esmaili
Innovation management is a discipline and it is mature enough in terms of to to kind of qualify your bucket of innovation, the risk that comes with it, the budget that is required and the kind of the, the time that is required for you to see the ROI. Because if you are talking about, like, you know, innovating in the in the existing products and services that you already have, that is the easy, easy ish game.
00;43;47;05 - 00;44;43;27
Azita Esmaili
Yeah, this is that kind of incremental improvement and so on. But as soon as you try to infuse and service with a new technology, you're looking at different time frame, different investment, different risk profile, absolutely different type of resources. And if you are trying to do something completely new, then has a different risk profile, different resources, different timeline and so on, I'm mixing all these three categories and call them innovation makes it that a lot of times organizations are struggling to be able to achieve any of those, or maybe they achieve everything, but they actually can see the correct outcome in terms of having visibility, of return on investment and the impact of the outcome.
00;44;43;29 - 00;44;52;19
Ian Bergman
That's so well said. You're an optimist on this stuff, right? You come across like an optimist. What like how do you think about the future?
00;44;52;21 - 00;45;22;28
Azita Esmaili
The future? I think first of all, it is out of our hand. And I'm often very pragmatic. Yes, I'm an optimist in terms of that. I try to control what I can control. Yeah. And and learn from and have an open mind in terms of learning the kind of the, the impact that I has in, in our work, in our life and how to use it to for the good.
00;45;23;00 - 00;45;48;06
Azita Esmaili
You know, I think it's down to each of us individually as well, how we use AI and how we use the data all so future I think it can be bright. I mentioned to you, I was hoping to be part of a system like Jarvis, the kind of the first generations that start coming out, you know. Sure.
00;45;48;08 - 00;46;30;27
Azita Esmaili
Yes. They were talk about industry copilot. That's kind of the first version of Jarvis for manufacturing. You see like you know the self-driving cars that you see in Total Recall version of 1980s, it's already happening. So there are like you know there are technology being used for, for the good. And I think the, how each individual is using the how companies are using the in terms of bringing the productivity, sustainability, inclusivity into their products and services is important.
00;46;31;00 - 00;46;37;12
Azita Esmaili
Again, there is no point of worrying about things that you cannot control.
00;46;37;15 - 00;46;59;16
Ian Bergman
That's. Yeah, that's that's very, very Zen. I like that answer. It's it's pragmatic. It's it's not the like oh shiny. All the world's problems are going to be solved by AI techno optimism that I think, you know, there's that is building a little bit of momentum and parts of the tech industry. I think it's very real. I have one more question for you on this.
00;46;59;16 - 00;47;24;21
Ian Bergman
Before we maybe get into, you know, we'll start to wrap up and do do some fun questions because this is just been fascinating. But I want to talk about some of the headwinds to adopting AI, some of the things that are slowing it down. We had a we talked briefly about regulatory forces, for instance. And honestly, my view is I don't I don't see how any regulator can possibly keep up right now.
00;47;24;21 - 00;47;35;13
Ian Bergman
And I think that's a bit of a challenge. But what forces do you see that are maybe making it take longer to get to Jarvis than it might otherwise?
00;47;35;16 - 00;48;12;13
Azita Esmaili
I think one, one of the kind of ways for me to learn more about AI is that I work with Stanford online as an expert mentor for their course, and when I spoke with participants, this is the course for kind of professional development folks that are in the industry, and they want to learn more about AI. Yeah. I actually asked them this question of the participants of the course, and interestingly enough, it was the human element in terms of the resistant to change.
00;48;12;15 - 00;48;54;17
Azita Esmaili
Yep. And in terms of both from fear as well as not wanting to rely on, the machine and the, the data. So that has come up as number one, a kind of obstacle for adoption. And I think the second one is the cybersecurity and then regulatory and so on. But even with the mature products that might be that are secured and is being built based on the latest regulatory, the adoption of it, the is the human element in terms of if they want to take that on or not.
00;48;54;24 - 00;48;56;07
Azita Esmaili
I at this moment.
00;48;56;10 - 00;49;18;21
Ian Bergman
I mean, for what it's worth, I completely agree. I think I think it's really easy to it in actually in any discipline to forget and overlook the quote unquote human element, the fact that we are emotional creatures, creatures of habit, creatures with motivation and pride. I think that's right. I talked to a lot of people that sort of I would classify as acceleration ists.
00;49;18;21 - 00;49;46;11
Ian Bergman
Right. Who are like, oh, the capabilities are there. It's going to transform society. And I, I think humans are humans are more complex than that. So I think that's a good that's a I think that's a wonderful note actually to end on because it's also just a reminder that in this fast paced world where, you know, I think it is getting harder and harder to see what the future will bring.
00;49;46;13 - 00;50;03;03
Ian Bergman
You know, we are still people in human society is and we are trying to figure this out together. So and I think that's really important for innovation leaders to remember. Right. Change can rarely be forced and change has to be meaningful at a at a human level.
00;50;03;04 - 00;50;36;06
Azita Esmaili
Absolutely. I what I would like to emphasize the, the culture element. Yeah. In this again culture data technology. So focusing on culture, having the right culture there, learning and experimenting and adopting it's become part of your day to day, work and life that will also and also like, you know, removing that barrier in terms of fear that this is here to help me rather than take over my job.
00;50;36;08 - 00;50;41;02
Azita Esmaili
That's been kind of help with the change management in the organization.
00;50;41;04 - 00;51;06;29
Ian Bergman
Yeah, that's a really big one. And and there are there are other elements of that. Right? I was talking to a pretty smart investor. Oh, I don't know. Last month who was talking about the pride element. Right. And the adoption of AI. Right. We we derive pride, for better or worse. Many people derive pride from things like how many people are reporting to them or what are those roles and skills.
00;51;07;01 - 00;51;21;11
Ian Bergman
And as technology starts to change that dynamic, that team structure, you know, it impacts how we perceive ourselves and our job. And yeah, that change element so important. Yes. Oh man. This is a fun conversation.
00;51;21;17 - 00;51;32;05
Azita Esmaili
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. We've we spoke very little about the kind of innovation itself, but it's kind of embedded in the in the AI conversations. Yeah.
00;51;32;11 - 00;51;51;11
Ian Bergman
Yeah. Well as to if it's okay, I want to just kind of jump to a little a little game. You've probably heard on previous podcasts. I just want to do I want to get to know you a little bit better, and we're going to talk a little bit more about innovation while we do it. But I'm just going to ask you some quick questions and don't think just answer.
00;51;51;11 - 00;52;01;06
Ian Bergman
Just just, just tell me what your quick answer is and maybe we'll talk about some of them. But let's let's start with a simple one. What do you prefer, remote or in-person work.
00;52;01;09 - 00;52;23;27
Azita Esmaili
Remote, I think yes. Yeah I if I could choose it would be the, the and the mix. Yeah. Because the human element is also important. But when it comes to be able to actually think, be creative, I do my best work remote because I can focus.
00;52;23;29 - 00;52;29;20
Ian Bergman
Awesome. And are you a morning person or kind of a night owl? Like, when do your best ideas come out?
00;52;29;22 - 00;52;30;27
Azita Esmaili
Like,
00;52;31;00 - 00;52;37;23
Ian Bergman
Like, oh, good. Because now I don't feel as bad for recording this with you in the evening on a Friday.
00;52;37;26 - 00;52;39;29
Azita Esmaili
No. All right. So.
00;52;40;01 - 00;52;52;19
Ian Bergman
That's really good. And. Okay, what is a guilty pleasure app that you can't live without? An app or a service on your phone that's just like, I really need this, but maybe I shouldn't.
00;52;52;22 - 00;53;29;17
Azita Esmaili
Oh, yeah. I have this aura ring thing. Yeah, yeah, that gives me the information about my sleep and my performance and all that. So why is, good set of data to have all separation anxiety, especially if you haven't slept well the night before and so on. Yeah. Well, I like, you know, depending on the day, I think, do I really need this to, to kind of give me more anxiety after night of or asleep, you know, but yeah, I think that's, that's one of the things that are new in my, collection that sometimes I really do.
00;53;29;17 - 00;53;31;21
Azita Esmaili
I need this today.
00;53;31;23 - 00;53;46;24
Ian Bergman
It's such a good answer. And you're such a data person that it makes sense. I, I went through, like I have a Withings watch, which is what I use similar. It's, a French company that does amazing stuff. But again, I can't say I've ever changed behavior because of the data, but I like having it.
00;53;46;24 - 00;53;59;13
Azita Esmaili
I'm just, I did as I said, I just get, like, your readiness is not on like an on top. So I feel a little bit, you know, stressed about it. But she's not the meaning of having that data.
00;53;59;15 - 00;54;11;08
Ian Bergman
So that's definitely not what you're there's definitely not where you're going for. Okay. What is one word that you would use to describe the next decade of innovation?
00;54;11;10 - 00;54;14;25
Azita Esmaili
Oh, that's a good one. Transformative.
00;54;14;27 - 00;54;23;25
Ian Bergman
Yeah. It's good. I don't know what I would answer. I think genuinely, I think I might say scary, even though I'm an optimist.
00;54;23;27 - 00;54;25;01
Azita Esmaili
Right.
00;54;25;04 - 00;54;41;06
Ian Bergman
But transformative is good. That's I think it's inevitable and. Okay. And so now the harder question is you noted we've embedded innovation in the conversation, but we haven't defined it. What is your what is your definition of innovation.
00;54;41;08 - 00;55;08;23
Azita Esmaili
That that goes back to the conversation that we had about innovation management. Yeah. And innovation is not one thing for me. There are there are three types of innovation, three types of innovation. You either improve what you have and like in an incremental way. And that's that's a continuous kind of innovation. You infuse your services with new technologies.
00;55;08;25 - 00;55;36;03
Azita Esmaili
That is kind of, I would say like a new category of innovation for me. And the no. One ideas that most people call innovation is the kind of the R&D type of thing that comes out of it. Open innovation comes out of ecosystem, basically. Yeah. So for me, innovation is like, you know, it has different flavor. And it's not one thing.
00;55;36;05 - 00;56;10;08
Azita Esmaili
And the most important thing is like, you know, in terms of what is it you try to achieve with it, improve what you have, enhance what you have, or do something completely new. And based on that, you have a different kind of approach to it. So I go on the more practical way how I can implement it. And I think like, you know, and it's funny that this is you can ask two people what is innovation to you and you get the same answer, you know, but but this this is mine.
00;56;10;12 - 00;56;15;17
Ian Bergman
I, I can also I can also ask 25 people and get 25 different answers.
00;56;15;17 - 00;56;17;07
Azita Esmaili
Yes, yes.
00;56;17;10 - 00;56;18;12
Ian Bergman
So yeah.
00;56;18;15 - 00;56;46;00
Azita Esmaili
That is what it means for me and is a try and tested in because my goal is to actually see the ROI. Yes, I want to be able to connect the the excitement created into the enterprise and scale it. And because of that, I need to categorize it and kind of frame it in my mind and then have a program behind it in a systematic way to manage that in each category.
00;56;46;03 - 00;56;57;12
Ian Bergman
Amazing. Well, is it a it's an absolute pleasure to have somebody who lives and breeds innovation in the way you do on the podcast. Thank you for joining Innovators Inside. It's been a pleasure.
00;56;57;13 - 00;57;01;26
Azita Esmaili
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation.
00;57;01;29 - 00;57;13;12
Ian Bergman
Yeah, it's super fun. And we just I just have one more question for you, for our audience members who might want to follow your work, what's the best way to do that? Are you on LinkedIn? Is there a website to point them to?
00;57;13;15 - 00;57;24;28
Azita Esmaili
LinkedIn is best. Yes. Yeah, LinkedIn is best. Hopefully this year I will have, blog, website launch. But for now I'm mostly on LinkedIn, so that's the best place to follow.
00;57;25;04 - 00;57;34;06
Ian Bergman
Amazing. Well everyone go connect with her. Follow her work. Zita as well. Thank you so much for joining innovators inside and have an amazing weekend.
00;57;34;09 - 00;57;38;03
Azita Esmaili
Thank you. Yeah, same to you. Nice to speak with you.
00;57;38;06 - 00;58;01;21
Ian Bergman
It as well. Bye. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Alchemist x Innovators Inside. Thanks for listening. If you found value in today's discussion, be sure to subscribe to our podcast and check out our segments on YouTube. Links and follow ups are in the show notes, and if you have questions you want us to feature in future episodes, email innovators at Alchemist accelerator.com.
00;58;01;23 - 00;58;12;27
Ian Bergman
Stay tuned for more insider stories and practical insights from leaders. Crafting our future.